A Cinema Retro Exclusive: director John Stevenson ("Kung Fu Panda", "Sherlock Gnomes") provides an exclusive interview with Midge Costin, director of the acclaimed new film "Making Waves: The Art of Cinematic Sound".
Working on the sound was the most fun part of the two
animated feature films I have directed. One of the nicest gifts you get as a director,
after working on your film for years, is being able to see your film fresh
again once the sound designers and composer have added a whole new dimension to
the story. So I was very excited to see Midge Costin's new documentary "Making
Waves: The Art Of Cinematic Sound" and have a chance to talk to her about this
vital, but often overlooked aspect of movie making. (John Stevenson)
JS: I loved your
film and was surprised at how visual it was for a subject that is primarily
auditory. It must have been a labor of love.
MC: It took 9 years to
make! My editor, David J. Turner was a student of mine and he was so good. He
had already come into film school having made films and he was also a composer.
He was so good at both sound and picture and he was so sensitive. We shot most
of the interviews from 2013 to 2016. In the first year I just sat with him,
which I know people don’t do anymore as directors, and we sat and went through
the dailies and talked and he took it all in. He’s a young guy (now in his mid
30’s) and he was with me the whole time. He was brilliant.
JS: IMDB Lists
“Quiet Cool†from 1986 as your only picture editing credit, but did you edit
picture on any other films?
MC: I did apprentice editing on
something called GYMKATA (1985) and then QUIET COOL and a couple of other
things, then I went to Alaska right after film school. I actually did some
editing on some documentaries up there.What happened was, the last thing I thought I would do coming
out of film school was sound. I would get in a panic doing sound because
I thought it was technical, and I wasn’t relating it to story and character and
all of that. So I edited the picture with a friend of mine who ended up going into
sound and we edited his student film together.So I came out and did apprentice, assistant editing and all that. And I
had my thesis film left which was a short documentary and Dan calls me up and
says “Midge, none of the Union guys will touch this 16mm film, but if you come
I will teach you sound effects and I will cut the dialogueâ€. So, as I tell my
students, I lowered myself and took a sound job because I needed the money to
finish my thesis film. And on that very first film I realized ‘Oh crap, I am
responsible for setting mood and tone and establishing plot points and
character, and how do I do that?â€And so
I started and then it's like one show led to the next because I knew so many
people from film school. Once you do anything in sound everybody is like ’Oh,
can you help me?’ So I just started getting sound jobs, and then here it is,
the 80s and going into the 90s and sound is now in 5.1 and because I cut sound
effects (I was one of the few women that was cutting effects, which made it kind
of fun) and then I found myself on these big action adventure movies. My first Union Show
was DAYS OF THUNDER and I had to do the sound effect for the engine of the car
for the bad guy who was racing against Tom Cruise, and I did all the aerial
shots showing the Nascar racetrack. When I was a little I wanted to be a race car
driver (laughs). One thing just led to another and it was so exciting.
JS: You have 23
sound editing credits (according to IMDB) and those include doing Foley,
dialogue, sound effects, so out of all of those films which ones did you like
the most? MC: My favorite, because it comes down
to story and character was CRIMSON TIDE. I just love Gene Hackman and Denzel
Washington and their relationship and also the story. It is a good story about
the military, and are they pro war or anti-war? And I found that fascinating.
But the other thing is, you are in a submarine, so you are in a tin can and you
are telling a story on a set, and you have to take out the footsteps in the
dialogue track because they are stepping on plywood! But the whole tension of when
they get hit and they are going down, down, down, and they are going to be
crushed, it is your responsibility to bring the emotion and the reality,
because they are all just listening! It is all being told through their ears,
the story is being told aurally.
And also in that movie each different department (radio, sonar, weapons systems,
etc.) have a different coloured lighting, so we do the same thing, every single
space has a different background ambience to it, but I just loved working on that.
Another fun one was ARMAGEDDON. I know Stanley Kubrick is
probably rolling over in his grave because there is no sound in space and I'm
putting in all these incredible sounds. Even a fire happens and I am like "Oh,
really?" But when Bruce Willis and Steve
Buscemi come out of that shuttle for the first time, the meteor was the
antagonist and so what I wanted to do is make it sound like its going to devour
them. So I get earthquake rumbles and low tones that always go to our gut and
bring up fear and cue us that something is going to happen. And then have the rock as if it was almost like munching on somebody like
really chewing, going to eat them, devour them. But we are always thinking too "What’s the low frequency sound, what’s the mid, what’s the high?" And for the high
on that, I used this wind through a wire that really kind of makes the hair on
the back of your neck stand up, so that was fun.
My least favorite thing
is when you don’t have time and they get to sound at the last minute and they
don’t really care about sound. But when you have someone like Tony Scott who
cared about sound you would get it early enough, maybe even at the script stage
so you can be feeding the edit room, then those things are great. Michael Bay,
in some of his earlier films, did not seem as interested in sound. I was working
with George Waters, who was the supervisor, and he was getting him to pay
attention to sound, enlightening him and now Michael Bay really cares about
sound and realizes how important it is.
JS: So out of all of
those 23 films you worked on as a sound editor which director did you enjoy working
with the most and who used sound the most creatively?
MC: Tony Scott really
cared and was a really great collaborator and he looked on sound as one of his
key positions. But I know some big
directors even now who are not paying attention to sound. They do it late, and
they are changing picture to the last second and you just don’t have time to do
a good job. So it is all about respect. I was really sorry not to be able to
get the Cohen brothers for my film, they don’t really do too many interviews,
but they have sound specified in their scripts. So think about that, you can
read a script and possibly make suggestions.
I ended up on these big action adventure movies but the truth is
I realized one day late in the 90’s that I don’t even like those films, to tell
you the truth.I realized, a couple of
years ago, that I go to a movie to hear someone tell me what they think the
meaning of life is, and you don’t get that from those films! The whole
rollercoaster thing, I don’t really understand. I love rollercoasters, so I
would rather go on a real rollercoaster than watch some of these action
adventure movies. They are so overly violent, I found them sexist and racist,
so I started teaching and I thought I can pass on these skills that I have so
that they can make really good movies. One of my students was Ryan Coogler, who
did sound, because he didn’t know it very well. So that is kind of a fun thing.
JS: So a personal
question as a sound editor: which film sound design is the one that has
impressed you the most in the history of movies?
MC: I was just
thinking about that. One of the ones that stood out for me when I saw it and
thought about sound was David Lynch’s ERASERHEAD. Now when I listen to it I
think it is over the top, of course the whole film is, but still that had a big
impact on me. But I would say APOCALYPSE NOW and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, for
those big films. But I also really like smaller films. One of the reasons
ORDINARY PEOPLE is in my film is because silence can be really powerful. And I
also think about that with Hitchcock films. And Orson Welles, his films are so
subtle. And those films are as good as anything being made now. A lot of times
I will get questions from these 18 year-old boys about "What kind of microphone
did you use, or what kind of editing system?" And it is not about the
technology, that’s what I am trying to make sure people know, it is about the
directors. The directors who are pushing. Now it is so much easier digitally
than when we were doing it analog, but we are doing the same thing, and it was
kind of fun to learn when you could not even see anything. We would be staring
off into space. Now you can see the waveforms.
JS: So you have all these wonderful
directors-Steven Spielberg, David Lynch, George Lucas, Ang Lee Christopher
Nolan, and more and more. How easy was it to get all those directors for the
film, and how easy was it to get this plethora of clips from films going back
to the beginning of cinema? It must have been a huge job.
MC: Well, the
directors I got through the sound people mostly and then Spielberg and Lucas
are active at USC, and I have an endowed chair that was given by both of them.
So they're aware and they said yes, but we almost didn’t get Spielberg because
he was doing back to back films, and he had no time. We were literally about
to go to Tribeca and he was able to do the interview at the last minute.So it was always because they have so much respect for their sound people that
we got them. So that wasn't too bad. With Peter Weir, David Lynch and Ang Lee, it’s
like their spirituality is their film making. Ang Lee talked about being in the
Foley room on THE ICESTORM and making the sound of the ice with broken glass. He
was so engaged. He was in the edit room for BILLY LYNNâ€S LONG HALF TIME
WALKand he came and hung out with us
while we were setting up. Whereas some other people just came to do their piece.
I remember Robert Redford came in and said “I only have 20 minutes†(everybody
would say “I only have 20 minutesâ€) and then he gave us at least an hour,
because I think they really respect sound. And going into the second part of
your question, I had listened to their body of work and had very specific
questions because all those clips, we had to set them up. I had to know what
clips we could use so that I could ask them to talk about them. And if they
didn’t say the name of the film, we would ask and get them to say it (almost
like ADR) because I was asking them about specific films, and very specific
scenes because we had to know what we could use. So we learned (myself, my
editors, my producing partners and anyone involved in the film )
‘fair use’ and understand how it was used so we didn’t end up having the lawyers
cut our film for us (laughs).
JS: It must have
taken a long time to clear all those rights?
MC: It did, but we
were constantly giving them cuts in the last two years so that they could say
this is working and this is not. One of the things that we did it is that we
built scenes that we knew we wanted, like for SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and A RIVER
RUNS THROUGH IT, a quieter film, so we would build these scenes and that was
hard, because I didn’t want to go over 90 minutes, I knew it should be a 90
minute film, so I never made like a 5-hour version.
JS: Thank you! Films
are too long!
MC: I totally agree.
So we never even had a two-hour version.
JS: I have seen your film twice now, and if you can, I think it is very
important to see it in a cinema with a good Surround Sound system, because you
demonstrate various surround sound formats both visually and aurally. So what
is going to happen for home video where most people will hear it out of a
single sound bar in the front?
MC: You know, I just
got off the phone with someone who said (and this is the second person who has
said this to me in 24 hours) that it works somehow on a computer. And I’m like,
really? Because if you do something that is mono it splits 50/50 but if you do
left and right, it has a whole different feel, so it must translate somehow. I
have got to listen to it now! I understand most people will see it at home and
not in theaters, but it was important to me to find a distributor who would
give it a theatrical release. Some people bemoan the fact that people aren’t
going to theaters and all that stuff, but sound is even more important as
screens get smaller because that is the emotion, the emotion is coming through
sound. And also headphone technology is getting better with VR.
JS: I used to love CinemaScope films where they would pan the sound as
characters moved across the screen. With 5.1 mixes the dialogue got anchored to
the center of the screen, but now with Dolby Atmos mixes panning sound seems to
be back (I am thinking of the immersive soundtrack for Alfonso Curon’s ROMA if
you saw it in 70mm). Do you like panning sound to increase the spatiality, or
do you find it distracting?
MC: I just did a panel
at the Mill Valley Film Festival with Iaon Allen from Dolby and Ben Burtt. I
worked on a show where they did pan the sound, it was HOCUS POCUS with Bette
Midler and was kind of fun, but here is what the problem is. If the left,
center, right speakers are different when you pan from one to the other then
they will sound different as you move from speaker to speaker, and this is what
Iaon was saying. So they stopped. The other thing is, it takes so long to do
that and then you go to so many theaters and the sound is screwed up. I remember going to see THE LAST EMPEROR and this is what
happened, it is the perspective thing. I am looking at the emperor, and now I
am looking at the audience, and things swap. And it calls attention to itself.
So if you do a P.O.V., it changes, and then it’s like “Why is the sound over
there?†It calls attention to why the sound is coming from that side of the
screen and the audience gets pulled out of the movie. So it is so awkward doing
that, that it got anchored. But I loved ROMA! I thought it was brilliant. I insisted on
including it in the film because even Ben Burtt was saying "There is nothing
that’s happened in the last 30 years or so that’s new", but I was like "No, I
think ROMA is changing it" because I would be telling students, "Don’t put
stuff in the surrounds, you’re going to make the audience look behind them". But
when I am in that car and they are driving to the beach and the kid's voices are
behind me, I am totally in that scene. I loved that. I loved that he got more
aggressive with his sound design. That’s what we need.
JS: We went from
mono, to stereo, to quadraphonic, to 5.1, 7.1 and now Dolby Atmos. Where can we
go next?
MC: Well, possibly
there may be in-seat audio, kind of like a ride. You can almost see them doing
the LFE low frequency, the boom channel, under seats or speakers by your ears.
I don’t think they have figured out how to use VR well yet, but when that comes
in I think that we will have more channels. I don’t know where it’s going
besides that, but maybe it’s almost like a ride to bring people in.
JS: When you got into movies your
original interest was story. After a while working as a sound editor you
realized you could use sound to shape narrative, reveal character, and express
emotion. What advice do you have for aspiring filmmakers about how to use sound
creatively to tell their stories?
MC: What I would say is to break down a script. Think about what can
your character hear. What is the environment? And how are they being affected
by sound? So start there, at the script stage. I always break down each scene but think thematically. What can sound bring? Just like you are thinking about
camera, lighting, costume, production design, or any other area of film making. Ask how sound could help tell this story. And I always think of the background
and the ambience, how does the environment affect your character? What is the
mood in the film you want to create? What are the sound themes thematically? A
lot of times plot points might not have sound, so what can you take from the
environment?
So I have people ask me
how is sound telling the story. One scene I always like to show my beginning
students is from NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN. It is a very simple scene where Josh
Brolin first finds the money. So he is in this kind of prairie desert and he’s
looking, looking, and there is a wind and then he looks at his watch. And he is
looking to see if the guy under the tree with the money is really dead. And so
he puts up his watch as if we are going to have to cut time, as if we are going
to have to see the watch again to show that 45 minutes or an hour has passed.
Then we cut to the same perspective almost, but the sound of the wind has
changed and we know time has changed, it is not continuous, and we never had to
look at the watch again. Now he walks up onto the rocks and we see his heavy-duty
boots, which says something about his character. This is our man. We hear flies;
the guy with the money is dead. Then here comes the big plot point, the money,
follow the money. So he opens the case. Was there any music? No.There is no
music cue. There would normally be a big music cue, a brassy Dun-Dun-Duuuun! to
say ‘There is the money!". So I always say "Did anything tell you that was the
money?" No one can remember, so we play it again. There has always been a
slight wind sound effect throughout the scene, but now there is a big wind gust
as the money is revealed. It doesn’t register as a big wind gust but you feel
it in your gut.
And then I will show scenes from CRIMSON TIDE when Gene Hackman
is giving his speech to his crew about the submarine being the most powerful
destructive force in the ocean, and it is raining. And I put big thunderclaps
on top of his speech. If I had told them before I wanted to do that, they would
have said "No, you don’t put thunder over his speech. Put it between his
dialogueâ€, and they would also have said "She is the biggest hack". They watched
it afterwards and laughed, because it seemed so ridiculous. But audiences did
not notice I put all the thunder claps over the biggest statements he is
making.
We don’t get credit for what we do because it is happening
emotionally but not intellectually. But we are all filmmakers and that is why
it was fun to make this film, and yes to make it visual because we are making
movies, which are visual and aural.
JS: Well, I loved
your movie and thank you so much for talking with me.